Sunday, October 16, 2011

Response from my mom, Week 2 on "Christianity's Death Toll & Wars vs Atheist Death Tolls & Wars"

My original text is in white, her response in pink, and mine in green. This one made me really angry, and serves to show people just how diluted and self serving Christian thinking really is.

Let's start at the very beginning. Many Christians argue that murder is a sin and their God is a peaceful, loving God. They claim that the only reason "evil" exists in the world is because well, of two reasons. We were given free will, first of all. Secondly, it's Satan's fault too. I don't see how it could be both to be honest. If we have free will, how can Satan dictate what we do? If we didn't, I can maybe see it being Satan's fault for causing all this shit. But it's just us. I won't get too much into that topic because that's another one for another day.

It is both; man has free will and satan spends much time tempting people and lying to them especially if they’ve got reason to be angry anyway.  That’s the perfect person to launch an attack on and to convince them that they have a right to kill someone.  So a person will take the leading of satan and use his free will to act no it.
 What you said makes it sound more like Christianity is a religion for Satan more than it is a religion for Christ, since he's the one influencing people do to his bidding according to your logic.
Anyways. As you can see in the chart to the left, God is actually the one with the most documented murders. The 10 deaths that are attributed to Satan aren't even fully his fault. He was placed on a bet and given permission by God himself to carry out those murders. Think back to Noah's Ark, Sodom & Gomorrah, killing "the innocents" and "first born children" in the 10 plagues in Egypt, he even murdered his own son. He violates a direct commandment, "Thou shalt not kill," number 6. I'm sorry but I'd never follow a God who couldn't lead by example.

God did wipe out mankind at the flood (not sure how many people were on the earth then) but his reasons were because everyone except Noah’s family were given over to evil.  The same with Sodom & Gomorrah and all the others that were killed in the old testament.  And though I didn’t confirm each of the verses above, I know that many are true   I cannot pretend to understand God’s reasons or ways.  But God wiping out evil people cannot be compared to Christians killing people vs atheists killing people.
You're missing the point. There's no good reason to kill anyone, no matter what. Evil is subjective. God made of of the 10 Commandments "thou shalt not kill," and then he directly disregards that Commandment himself. I would never worship a God who can't lead by his own example. A good quote by Richard Dawkins from his book The God Delusion says:

""The God of the Old Testament is arguable the most unpleasant character in all
fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust; unforgiving control-freak; a
vindictive; bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist,
infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic,
capriciously malevolent bully. Those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can
become desensitized to their horror. A naif blessed with this perspective of
innocence has a clearer perspective. Winston Churchill's son Randolph somehow
contrived to remain ignorant of scripture until Evelyn Waugh and a brother
officer, in a vain attempt to keep Churchill quiet when they were posted
together during the war, bet him he couldn't read the entire Bible in a fortnight:
'Unhappily it has not had the result we hoped. He has never read any of it before
and is hideously excited; keeps reading quotations aloud "I say I bet you didn't
know this came in the Bible..." or merely slapping his side and chortling "God,
isn't God a shit!"' Thomas Jefferson - better read - was of a similar opinion,
describing the God of Moses as 'a being of terrific character - cruel, vindictive,
capricious and unjust.'""

If that's not enough proof for you, you can find more bible verses of that nature in the links listed below. If you want to argue "but those are all old testament stories and rules! God gave us Jesus to die for our sins so we wouldn't have to live like that anymore!" If you want to believe this is true, then how come some people still live by these rules?

Christians are no longer under ‘the law’ of the old testament, that many of the verses you quoted above are made up of.  There are some people who do not believe that Jesus was the Savior predicted in the old testament so do not believe in or follow the new testament, where we are now under grace and not the law.  I cannot speak for those who do not follow the new testament, but I believe the majority of them no longer put to death someone for the reasons you quote above. 
I already answered this statement in the next bit I wrote. As far as I'm concerned there should be no divider between Old and New, because what "shouldn't be followed" anymore shouldn't be in the book. The fact that it is begs the question "why is it?" Maybe it's because it still is supposed to be followed and Christians today are too smug to listen to anything other than what they want to use that will suit their desires the best.
Why is it even in the Bible if it's not relevant anymore? The Bible is supposed to be the word of God, his moral compass for us. If it's not to be taken literally, then what part of the Bible is at all? Once you start cherry picking like that, it's a very slippery slope of "perceptive interpretations" that can turn into just about anything that anyone wants to hear to justify what they want to get away with.

So true, that is why it is so important to be lead by the Spirit of God, and to be taught on a regular basis by elders of the church.
Video: Why don’t Christians kill their children:

Andrea Yates was mentally ill and delusional, and very likely under demonic control.  This does not mean that all Christians are mentally ill, delusional or under demonic control.   This guy’s arguments are utterly ridiculous and any sane person, Christian or not, would agree.  He’s just having fun being ‘devil’s advocate’.
Ah, but it does bring us back to the topic of Christians and mental illnesses. What you call "under demonic control" in the Christian world is a scapegoat in the real world, we just call them mentally insane. And by the way she was "evaluated" and attempted to be tried as mentally ill but they threw that out in the court room, she was deemed fit to be tried as an adult. No, not everyone will agree with you that he's "just having fun," infact there are probably millions of people who agree with him because what he's saying is true. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean no one else does. That's your Christian side talking.
Throughout Documented History

From Ancient Pagans    to   Religious /wars

Your notes above range between the years 315 to 1645, which is approximately 1330 years.  The articles seem to be a listing of all wars and deaths, regardless of who started it and who were being killed.  Several times I see Christians being massacred , several times I see many deaths due to sickness and famine.  I believe some of the totals are exaggerated, ie Witch trials (see more below).  Also, we have to remember that for many centuries, the church and the state (law, taxes, government, etc) were one, and if the state was going to have a war it was called a ‘religious’ war.  That does not have the same meaning as it holds today.  Also, there were many religious wars between groups who had differing opinions about how to be a church.  In my opinion, many of those murders were done in God’s name but were not right. 

As for Ancient Pagans, many pagans were killed in obedience to God in biblical times God gave orders to kill these people, and I believe that God had his reasons that we don’t understand.   From reading the bible I did get some reasons:  the pagans worshiped many gods and were forever leading God’s people into idolatry.  Also, many of the pagans had demons and dabbled in supernatural powers and God wanted the world to be rid of them to protect his own people.

In Dinesh D’Souza’s book “What’s So Great About Christianity” he says “ Atheism has killed more people in the past 100 years than Christianity in the past 1,000 years!  

“SUFFERING    D'Souza does not deal with the issue of evil and suffering the way most would. In fact, he barely scratches the surface. Rather, what he does is deal with the objection raised by atheist and unbelievers that Christianity has led to the greatest massacres and wars in history. More people have been killed in the name of religion (including Christianity) than any other reason. They always point to things like the Crusades, Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, etc.

D'Souza does not minimize these events and the millions that were killed. However, he puts them in their proper context and the historical background needed to understand them. There is no excuse for some of the things that people have done in the name of God, but D'Souza shows that much of what leading atheist thinkers are saying are historically inaccurate.

One of the many myths that he debunks here is the numbers game. For example, many assume that hundreds were murdered in the Salem Witch trials. When the truth is that less than 25 were killed. Neither the author nor myself, are downplaying those deaths, for even 1 is too many, but you can notice how much atheist and unbelievers have exaggerated the claims of death and murder in religion. Most of the things they say concerning this issue is simply wrong.

And then the author does something that really drives his point home. He shows that there have been, by far, more people killed and massacred in the name of atheism than religion. One paragraph reads:

"Religion-inspired killing simply cannot compete with the murders perpetrated by atheist regimes. I recognize that population levels were much lower in the past, and that it's much easier to kill people today with sophisticated weapons than it was in previous centuries with swords and arrows. Even taking higher population levels into account, atheist violence surpasses religious violence by staggering proportions. here is a rough calculation. The worlds population rose from around 500 million in 1450 AD to 2.5 billion in 1950, a fivefold increase. Taken together, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the witch burnings killed approximately 200,000 people. Adjusting for the increase in population, that the equivalent of one million deaths today. Even so, these deaths caused by Christian rulers over five-hundred-year period amount to only 1 percent of the deaths caused by Stalin, Hitler, and Mao in the space of a few decades."

This is a staggering figure to say the least! And the calculation above is only considering those killed under 3 atheist dictators, not all of them! The statistics of those killed in the name of Christianity doesn't even compare the number killed by atheists.

Therefore, the argument that Christianity and religion only kills and causes useless wars must never be made again because history has revealed that the most dangerous ideology isn't Christianity or religion, but the lack-thereof. Atheism has killed more people in the past 100 years that Christianity in the past 1,000 years!”

Stalin was responsible for 20 million deaths, Mao was responsible for 70 million deaths and Hitler was responsible for 10 million deaths (6 million were Jews).   That’s a total of 100,000 deaths at the hands of atheists just a few decades. 

The articles list all wars and deaths caused because of Christianity. It's amazing how fast you forget what subject you're reading about today, it's denial at it's finest. It was called a "religious" war back in the day when church and state were one because of just that, it was one. Religion had full influence and final say on what a "state" was going to do. It was religious in nature therefor it was religious, period. "In my opinion, many of those murders were done in God’s name but were not right." How can you say something like that, which completely backs up my point, and yet fail to grasp my point at the same time? The rest of your comments about this is just stupid and I don't want to address them again because I hate repeating myself, especially for someone who just won't get it. Also that link you gave me is lies and propaganda created by Christian leaders to make Atheists look bad and Christians look saint-like. You should really check your sources before you start shooting off at the mouth trying to sound righteous. Especially the part about the Salem Witch trials, that's sick. You sound like a Holocaust denier.

You clearly ignored my post about how Stalin and Hitler were devout Catholics. If you need proof then I suggest you read here. and for Hitler and Stalin respectively. I plan on writing about this more extensively but I hope this helps you see just how blinded and propagated you actually are. It kind of infuriates me that you had the nerve to say this after I actually added it into my post for the week about how they were NOT atheist and they WERE catholic, you still chose to ignore it as if it didn't matter. That's ignorance, and quite frankly that's something I'd go so far as to say brain washed. 

‎"Christians should be ashamed of themselves for backing something that has
caused so much horror, strife & oppression, as well as backing something with
no proof, no substance, no logic, no reason; for putting all their heart into fairy
tales for grown-ups, and then trying to push that delusion on everybody else just
so they can control the things they were taught to be uncomfortable around." - Chelle Von Steenburgh

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